[Internal-cg] Consensus call: Community comments handling

Daniel Karrenberg daniel.karrenberg at ripe.net
Wed Apr 22 09:00:03 UTC 2015


This procedure looks to me like one of these just workable compromises.
However, it is not important enough to spend more time on it. So I will
not oppose it.

The chair will have to support the secretariat in their decisions what
is spam and how to make specific comments available to which
communities. I suspect that some of these decisions will not be
straightforward. and we will receive some criticism for them no matter
what. I wish we could have avoided this work and these decisions by
omitting (2b).

We will also have to clarify to the communities that the request for
updates in (3) is not intended as a request to address each and every
comment nor to produce statistics on how many comments they responded to
etc etc.

(2a) is the important part.

Daniel

On 22.04.15 4:02 , joseph alhadeff wrote:
> Colleagues:
> 
> I have posted a clean reformatted proposed solution for the consensus
> building comments in drop box and attach it to this email for your
> convenience.
> 
> Best-
> 
> Joe
> 
> On 4/18/2015 10:01 AM, Kavouss Arasteh wrote:
>> Dear Joe,
>> I fully agree with your way forward.
>> May you kindly edit the former draft in re ordering the text and
>> deleting the element of giving option to OCs to elect to reply or not
>> and replace it by your text to which I fully agree
>> Kavouss
>>
>> 2015-04-18 14:38 GMT+02:00 Manal Ismail <manal at tra.gov.eg
>> <mailto:manal at tra.gov.eg>>:
>>
>>     Many thanks Mr. Arasteh for your trust ..
>>
>>     Unfortunately I’m traveling this coming week and have an intense
>>     week of meetings ..
>>
>>     I won’t be able to dedicate time for this issue, nor will I be
>>     able to join the ICG upcoming call, as indicated earlier ..
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Appreciate being excused ..
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Kind regards
>>
>>     --Manal
>>
>>      
>>
>>     *From:*Internal-cg [mailto:internal-cg-bounces at ianacg.org
>>     <mailto:internal-cg-bounces at ianacg.org>] *On Behalf Of *Kavouss
>>     Arasteh
>>     *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2015 1:46 PM
>>     *To:* Alissa Cooper
>>     *Cc:* internal-cg at ianacg.org <mailto:internal-cg at ianacg.org>
>>
>>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus call: Community comments
>>     handling
>>
>>      
>>
>>     Alissa
>>
>>     Thank you for the message
>>
>>     Pls note that from the very beginning some if us wanted to give
>>     the choice ti OCs to reply or not
>>
>>     Some others including me were if the opinion that such choice
>>     should exclusively be available to ICG to determine how to react.
>>     i.e. Reply directly to the comments received which usually would
>>     not be the case in practical circumstances or ICG decides ti send
>>     the comments to OC concerned and asks that entity to reply and
>>     copy the reply to ICG
>>
>>     This is fundamental and crucial as it is part or duty to oversight
>>     that process as indicated in our charter.
>>
>>     We can not compromise on any provisions of the charter.
>>
>>     Thank you for your kind understanding and careful attention.
>>
>>     I suggest Nanal who dealt with this issue kindly continue to find
>>     a solution.
>>
>>      Regards
>>
>>     Ksvouss  
>>
>>      
>>
>>          
>>
>>
>>
>>     Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>     On 16 Apr 2015, at 21:16, Alissa Cooper <alissa at cooperw.in
>>     <mailto:alissa at cooperw.in>> wrote:
>>
>>         If any of you who have agreed on edits could edit the document
>>         directly and post an update to the list and dropbox, that
>>         would be great. Personally I don’t fully understand what
>>         changes you all have agreed.
>>
>>          
>>
>>         Thanks,
>>
>>         Alissa
>>
>>          
>>
>>         On Apr 16, 2015, at 4:01 AM, Kavouss Arasteh
>>         <kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>         Dear Alissa,
>>
>>         Pls be reminded that in the Consensus building document that
>>         we worked for several  months  ago in which there was no
>>          mention  of so-called “ROUGHT CONSENSUS “which is practiced
>>         in your own community and not in ICG .That rough or soft
>>         consensus was strongly rejected. Please carefully read that
>>         consensus building document .It is not appropriate that such
>>         document which established the basis of our works and
>>         completed after more than 300 e-email message be ignored
>>
>>         We need to be consistent and respect our earlier decision and
>>         agreement.
>>
>>         My suggestions for a simple rewording has been supported and
>>         you need to take that into account
>>
>>         I do not agree with your position as it is not consistent with
>>         what we have decided before . You can not ignor all those
>>         agreement and just refer to “ROUGH CONSENSUS “which was
>>         totally disagreed from the very beginning
>>
>>         We need to be practical and comply with our charter.
>>
>>         Comments received should first be considered by ICG, if it
>>         requires reply, the reply should be give. If it needs to be
>>         sent to OCs ofor further analysis and reply ,once so decided
>>         by ICG that action should be done.
>>
>>         The decision making ENITY is ICG and not the OCs .
>>
>>         Comments received should not left as an optional process by
>>         OCs they must be treated properly.
>>
>>         Many evidence were witnessed that some OC do not wish to
>>         answer the questions
>>
>>         Then what is the role of the ICG?
>>
>>         Community expects a proper action from ICG,
>>
>>         The issue is not so difficult
>>
>>         Pls do not make a mass of that.
>>
>>         Joseph has made some edits, Milton implicitly agreed with my edits
>>
>>         Pls keep calm and allow us to work. Make your efforts to
>>         converge and not to diverge
>>
>>         This is an important matter left from Singapore
>>
>>         Regards
>>
>>         Kavouss  
>>
>>          
>>
>>          
>>
>>         2015-04-16 11:56 GMT+02:00 Joseph Alhadeff
>>         <joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com <mailto:joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com>>:
>>
>>         Kavouss:
>>
>>         We are in agreement except for one nuance.  When it comes to
>>         ICG I agree our actions are in our discretion and answers must
>>         come to us.
>>
>>          As you know, I have been an advocate of consultation and
>>         transparency; if a person sends us a question related to an OC
>>         propsal which we believe has been answered in the OC propsals
>>         or which we do not see as worthy of follow up- excluding the
>>         spam Patrik noted- we should still forward that question on an
>>         OC propsal to the OC in question so they can decide if they
>>         need to answer or explain their  actions further to optimize
>>         community consensus.  We need maximum transparency and
>>         consensus across all of our efforts...
>>
>>         I hope this helps clarify the thinking related to the need to
>>         forward questions that should have better been addressed to
>>         the OC...
>>
>>         Joe
>>
>>         Sent from my Android phone using TouchDown (www.nitrodesk.com
>>         <http://www.nitrodesk.com/>)
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>
>>         From: Kavouss Arasteh [kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com
>>         <mailto:kavouss.arasteh at gmail.com>]
>>         Received: Thursday, 16 Apr 2015, 4:41AM
>>         To: Joseph Alhadeff [joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
>>         <mailto:joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com>]
>>         CC: paf at frobbit.se <mailto:paf at frobbit.se> [paf at frobbit.se
>>         <mailto:paf at frobbit.se>]; internal-cg at ianacg.org
>>         <mailto:internal-cg at ianacg.org> [internal-cg at ianacg.org
>>         <mailto:internal-cg at ianacg.org>]
>>
>>         Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus call: Community comments
>>         handling
>>
>>         Dear Joseph
>>         Exactly . It is only and only ICG who decides to whether or
>>         not a comment received needs to be replied and not all comments.
>>         Once again the choice us within ICG and nit OCs
>>         Regards
>>         Kavouss
>>
>>         Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>         > On 16 Apr 2015, at 09:57, Joseph Alhadeff
>>         <joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
>>         <mailto:joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com>> wrote:
>>         >
>>         > As to a it is our option not obligation to every comment.
>>         >
>>         > Sent from my Android phone using TouchDown
>>         (www.nitrodesk.com <http://www.nitrodesk.com/>)
>>         >
>>         > -----Original Message-----
>>         >
>>         > From: Patrik Fältström [paf at frobbit.se <mailto:paf at frobbit.se>]
>>         > Received: Thursday, 16 Apr 2015, 2:16AM
>>         > To: joseph alhadeff [joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
>>         <mailto:joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com>]
>>         > CC: internal-cg at ianacg.org <mailto:internal-cg at ianacg.org>
>>         [internal-cg at ianacg.org <mailto:internal-cg at ianacg.org>]
>>         > Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Consensus call: Community
>>         comments handling
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >> On 16 apr 2015, at 00:09, joseph alhadeff
>>         <joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com
>>         <mailto:joseph.alhadeff at oracle.com>> wrote:
>>         >>
>>         >> Choices:
>>         >>
>>         >> a.  We decide that the comment we received is worthy of our
>>         own follow up and it inspires us to ask the same or related
>>         question(s) to the proposal drafters. This we have the ability
>>         to do at all times.
>>         >> b.  As the comment goes to a proposal as opposed to our
>>         process or the joint proposal, we are not in a position to
>>         properly answer the question.  As such we could forward the
>>         question to the correct community, on the chance that the
>>         asker of the question may not have also addressed the community.
>>         >> c.  Since we are working transparently, I assume all of the
>>         questions we receive will be available online.  If a community
>>         commits to keeping watch for relevant comments then we don't
>>         have to worry about forwarding comments.
>>         >>
>>         >> Options b and c in no way limit our rights and abilities
>>         under a.  b and c are merely concepts that assure the greatest
>>         transparency and assurance that comments are routed to those
>>         groups best able to address them.  It takes a no wrong door
>>         approach to comments and helps assure that those not familiar
>>         with the consultation process are also able to get their
>>         questions heard.
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > We also have d. various trolls and denial of service attacks
>>         that we can at point of inspection "just ignore". Specifically
>>         because of b. and c. And b. issues might be picked up by the
>>         OC themselves. Either because it was adressed to them as well
>>         as ICG, or because they saw it (according to c.).
>>         >
>>         > I.e. we are inspired by whatever comments come in, and might
>>         ask/forward questions to the OC's. OC's can also watch the
>>         list and act themselves on whatever is sent in.
>>         >
>>         > But I do not see us or OC be required to act on _every_
>>         comment coming in. Specifically not having ICG send _every_
>>         comment to the OC's for action.
>>         >
>>         >   Patrik
>>         > _______________________________________________
>>         > Internal-cg mailing list
>>         > Internal-cg at mm.ianacg.org <mailto:Internal-cg at mm.ianacg.org>
>>         > http://mm.ianacg.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg_ianacg.org
>>
>>          
>>
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>>          
>>
>>
>>
>>
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